RIE (Resources for Infant Educarers) expert Hari Grebler joined Janet Lansbury on the popular podcast "Unruffled" to discuss a profoundly influential approach to infant and toddler sleep. Grebler, a long-time associate of RIE founder Magda Gerber and a Pikler pedagogue, shared her philosophy that centers on respecting the infant as a whole person, even in the context of sleep. This perspective, rooted in decades of experience and training, offers a stark contrast to conventional sleep training methods, emphasizing observation, connection, and a deep understanding of a child’s natural rhythms.
Background and Expert Credentials
Hari Grebler’s extensive background in infant care provides a strong foundation for her insights. Having studied directly with Magda Gerber, the pioneer of RIE, Grebler has dedicated over 35 years to understanding and promoting respectful infant education. Her expertise is further enriched by her training as a Pikler pedagogue, a philosophy developed by Hungarian pediatrician Emmi Pikler that emphasizes the importance of free movement, uninterrupted play, and the infant’s inherent competence. Grebler also holds a certification as a Waldorf early childhood teacher, integrating a holistic approach to child development. Her work includes leading weekly parent-infant and parent-toddler guidance classes, private consultations, and workshops, all aimed at fostering a deeper, more respectful connection between parents and children. Her personal philosophy, as stated on her website, highlights the transformative power of respect in everyday interactions with infants. This conversation builds upon a previous popular episode of "Unruffled" titled "Every Child, Even a Tiny Baby, Deserves Time On Their Own," where Grebler first shared her valuable perspectives.
Challenging Conventional Sleep Wisdom
The discussion between Lansbury and Grebler began by addressing the often contentious topic of infant sleep and the prevalence of "sleep training." Lansbury described Grebler’s advice as "uncommon sense" – simple, comforting, and consistently accurate, mirroring the directness of Magda Gerber’s teachings. Grebler’s approach, showcased on her Instagram account, "Hari’s RIE Studio," offers warm and uniquely brilliant advice that cuts through the noise of modern parenting advice.
Grebler’s core message revolves around the fundamental principle of observing and responding to a baby’s cues from the earliest stages. She shared a personal anecdote about her own son at five months old, experiencing the common parental anxiety about sleep. Instead of resorting to external advice, she recalled the RIE principles and her own teachings. Her "favorite and best tip ever" is to acknowledge a baby’s tiredness early on.
“Oh, you seem so tired. I just saw you rub your eyes. Come, let’s go get ready for bed,” Grebler suggested as a foundational phrase. She emphasized that this simple acknowledgment, coupled with a gentle action like picking up the baby, lays a crucial groundwork for healthy sleep. This approach, she explained, brings awareness to the child and connects their physical state with a supportive parental response. This positive framing, Grebler noted, is vital because "before you even have your baby, sleep sounds scary. I mean, people scare you, I think." The pervasive narrative of "you’ll never sleep again" and the inundation of advice on blackout curtains, sound machines, and expensive sleep devices can disconnect parents from their innate understanding of their child.
The Power of Observation and Early Cues
Lansbury echoed Grebler’s sentiment, highlighting how external pressures can overshadow a parent’s intuition. “You’re putting all those things in between you instead of trusting that this is a natural process. Obviously we’re all given this ability to go to sleep, it’s how we survive.” Grebler agreed, recalling Magda Gerber’s deep appreciation for sleep and her belief that babies can also develop a positive relationship with rest.
Grebler elaborated on the importance of observing subtle cues that precede more obvious signs of tiredness, such as eye-rubbing and yawning. While eye-rubbing is a widely recognized signal, Grebler pointed out that earlier indicators include a baby becoming more dazed, movements slowing down, or conversely, a sudden burst of frantic energy. She noted that these early signs, often occurring about an hour after waking, are ideal for intervention. “It would be great if you can, but I always say eye rubbing because that’s sort of universal, that people can start there. Because the other things that you’re talking about are a little more subtle.”
Lansbury acknowledged the difficulty in catching these early cues, especially given the rapid transitions in a baby’s wakefulness. “Okay, they woke up, they were fed, they had their diaper changed, and now they’re playing. And then it’s like, okay, boom, they’re tired, it seems like two seconds later sometimes.” Grebler stressed that understanding this accelerated timeline is key, as it helps parents anticipate the need for rest rather than reacting to overt exhaustion.
Rethinking the Word "Tired"
The conversation touched upon the potential negative connotations of the word "tired," particularly as children get older. Lansbury recalled her own parents using "you’re tired" in a critical way, leading her to sometimes use "Do you feel sleepy?" instead. She wondered if the word "tired" could be perceived as an excuse or a sign of misbehavior. Grebler acknowledged this nuance, suggesting that this association is more common with older children, around four or five years old. However, she maintained that framing "tired" positively from infancy is crucial. The key, she proposed, is the accompanying action and intention: "Oh, you’ve been playing for a long time. I saw you rubbing your eyes. Come, I’m going to pick you up and let’s go get ready for bed." This inclusive language, she believes, shifts the perception from blame to support.
Sleep as a Foundation for Behavior
Grebler underscored the profound impact of sleep on a child’s behavior, drawing from her experience. She recalled a recent case where a parent reported a child’s aggressive behaviors, such as hitting. Grebler’s first question, as is her standard practice, was about the child’s sleep. The connection was immediate; addressing the sleep issues was paramount to managing the behavior. “And they can’t help it. It’s not fair to try to discipline or do this or that with a kid that is tired.” The goal, she explained, was to help the parent observe and identify the child’s early signs of fatigue.
Simplifying Life for Better Observation
A recurring theme was the importance of simplifying family life to facilitate better observation of children’s needs. Grebler advised that excessive activity and constant movement can prevent parents from noticing crucial cues. She suggested dedicating a few weeks to a more home-centered approach, observing the child’s transitions from waking to playing and noticing when they begin to show signs of tiredness. This focused observation, she asserted, makes the child’s need for rest "really obvious."
Lansbury added that adult perceptions of tiredness are not comparable to children’s. Children, she explained, engage with experiences more holistically, expending far more energy than adults who tend to compartmentalize their engagement. She recounted an instance where a parent was dismayed by their children’s poor behavior the day after an elaborate birthday party. Lansbury’s response was that the children were likely exhausted from the previous day’s festivities, a common oversight for parents. “We can’t base anything on how we’re feeling. We really have to be observant of them and know them and also just be ready and be prepared that they’re going to be tired when we least expect it, maybe.”
Finding a Child’s Natural Rhythm
Grebler shared her experience of finding her son’s natural sleep rhythm around five to seven months of age. After initially being influenced by a book that prescribed a strict schedule, she decided to trust her instincts and observe her son. She meticulously charted his sleep patterns, noting that a consistent rhythm emerged around 9:00 AM each day. This observation allowed her to proactively prepare him for sleep, a process that ultimately provided her with more freedom and a greater sense of balance. This aligns with Magda Gerber’s philosophy, which emphasized that a rhythmic life for the child, rather than a rigid routine, fosters greater independence and confidence.
The Interconnectedness of Sleep, Play, and Caregiving
Both experts emphasized that sleep cannot be viewed in isolation. It is intrinsically linked to a child’s overall well-being, including their play, caregiving experiences, and environment. Grebler highlighted the importance of connection with adults, ample time for independent play, and opportunities for free movement. She also noted the benefits of outdoor time and even sleeping outdoors when feasible, referencing her practice of allowing her son to nap in his stroller in the garden.
Lansbury shared her own romanticized ideal of outdoor naps, inspired by Emmi Pikler’s center, but acknowledged that practicalities and environmental factors can pose challenges. She emphasized that the psychological aspect of sleep for both parents and children is significant. For adults, anxiety about sleep can be a major impediment, often projected onto the child. Grebler agreed, stating that "anxiety is what interferes, for the adult anyway. And for the child, the anxiety of the adult."
Challenging the Notion of "Sleep Training"
The conversation naturally evolved to address "sleep training," a term both Lansbury and Grebler found problematic due to its lack of a universally agreed-upon definition and its often regimented connotations. Lansbury expressed her confusion about the term, stating, "I don’t even really know what it is." She contrasted it with "gentle parenting" and "respectful parenting," noting how labels can become diluted.
Grebler defined sleep training as a set of rules, often involving leaving a baby to cry alone. She distinguished this from a short cry of release that may occur while a child is being held or comforted. “I feel like there’s a difference between a five-minute cry in your arms or even longer in your arms. I feel like that’s different than a baby being by themselves.”
Lansbury proposed a nuanced approach, suggesting that a brief absence after offering reassurance, such as "You seem like you’re having a hard time getting to sleep. I’m going to go wash my hands or whatever and I’ll be back to check on you in a few minutes," is not the same as contrived sleep training. This approach, she argued, is about working together with the child, allowing for a moment of space without abandonment.
A Holistic Approach to Rest
Grebler advocated for a more organic approach to sleep, especially for newborns, suggesting parents avoid creating artificial needs. She advised against immediately resorting to practices like bouncing on a ball or using a swing unless the baby genuinely shows a need for it. "Mine hated to be bounced," she admitted, highlighting that individual preferences are paramount.
The discussion also touched upon the emotional aspect of sleep for both parents and children. Grebler acknowledged that parents often desire the end of their day and want their children to sleep. However, she stressed the importance of "letting go" as parents, exhaling agendas, and being present with their children. This presence, she believes, allows children to feel secure enough to let go into sleep.
The Enduring Impact of Respectful Parenting
Both experts concluded that the principles of RIE and Pikler pedagogy offer a lifelong approach to parenting, extending beyond infancy. By fostering a deep sense of respect, observation, and connection, parents equip their children with the tools to navigate not only sleep but all aspects of life. The ability to share feelings, to be held without an agenda, and to have one’s needs met authentically are foundational to a child’s emotional well-being.
Grebler announced a new offering, "Hari’s House," which will provide a workshop-style experience showcasing the principles of Pikler and RIE respectful parenting within a home environment. This initiative aims to offer parents a tangible understanding of how these philosophies translate into daily life, from environment and caregiving to free play and meals.
The conversation underscored that a peaceful and joyful approach to sleep is achievable by trusting the child’s innate capacity for rest and by fostering a strong, respectful connection between parent and child. This perspective offers a comforting and empowering alternative to the often anxiety-inducing world of infant sleep advice.
