RIE (Resources for Infant Educarers) expert Hari Grebler joined Janet Lansbury on the popular parenting podcast Unruffled to share her insights into fostering healthy sleep habits in infants and toddlers. Grebler, a seasoned RIE associate with over 35 years of experience and a protégé of Magda Gerber, advocated for a gentle, observant, and deeply respectful approach to sleep, emphasizing its foundational role in a child’s overall well-being and development. The discussion, which took place on July 6, 2025, offered a counterpoint to often anxiety-provoking narratives surrounding infant sleep, providing parents with practical, commonsense strategies.
Background: The RIE Philosophy and Infant Sleep
The RIE approach, founded by Magda Gerber, is rooted in the belief that infants are whole, capable individuals deserving of respect from birth. This philosophy emphasizes observation, trusting the child’s innate abilities, and fostering secure, respectful relationships. Applying these principles to infant sleep means viewing sleep not as a battle to be won through forceful methods, but as a natural biological need that can be supported through understanding and attunement.
Grebler, who also trained as a Pikler pedagogue and a Waldorf early childhood teacher, highlighted how her extensive experience has consistently reinforced the power of observing and responding to a baby’s cues. She noted that much of the anxiety surrounding infant sleep stems from pre-birth warnings and the overwhelming influx of often conflicting advice, which can disconnect parents from their own instincts and their baby’s individual needs.
"Through Magda and RIE, I became familiar with the world of infants and learned that respect could be communicated through everyday interactions," Grebler stated, echoing a sentiment from her website’s bio. This core principle, she explained, extends to the realm of sleep, where understanding and responsiveness are paramount.
Key Principles for Healthy Sleep: Observation and Attunement
Grebler’s primary advice for parents revolves around early observation and a positive framing of tiredness. She advocates for parents to become attuned to their baby’s subtle cues of fatigue, even before the more obvious signs like eye-rubbing and yawning appear.
"My very favorite and best tip ever in the world is from the very, very beginning when you see your baby tired, even the littlest baby, to say, ‘Oh, you seem so tired. I just saw you rub your eyes. Come, let’s go get ready for bed,’" Grebler shared. This simple act, she explained, brings awareness to the child and connects it with a supportive action, laying a foundation for positive associations with rest.
This approach contrasts sharply with common anxieties and the pressure to implement rigid sleep training protocols. Grebler pointed out that the pervasive narrative of "you’ll never sleep again" can create a self-fulfilling prophecy, leading parents to seek external solutions before fully understanding their child’s unique patterns. The emphasis on equipment like blackout curtains and sound machines, while potentially helpful for some, can also create a barrier between parents and their innate ability to understand their baby’s needs.
"It removes us away from knowing our child before we even have a child," Lansbury observed, underscoring Grebler’s point about the importance of trusting parental intuition.
Beyond the Obvious Cues: Recognizing Subtle Signs of Fatigue
While eye-rubbing and yawning are widely recognized indicators of tiredness, Grebler and Lansbury emphasized that these are often preceded by more subtle cues. These can include a baby’s gaze becoming more unfocused, their movements slowing down, or conversely, a period of heightened, disorganized activity that signals overstimulation and impending fatigue.
"Even before the eye rubbing, which is so classic…there are all these signs. Your baby is a little more dazed the way that they’re looking at things or their movements are slowing down or they’re kind of speeding up," Lansbury noted.
Grebler acknowledged that these earlier signs can be more subtle but stressed the value of consistent observation. She suggested that approximately an hour after a baby wakes, if their play is no longer going well or they appear to be "gazing out," it might be time to consider rest. This highlights the importance of a predictable, yet flexible, daily rhythm rather than a clock-bound schedule.
Challenging the Stigma of "Tired"
Lansbury brought up a common parental experience where the word "tired" can carry negative connotations, often associated with disappointment or criticism of a child’s behavior. She recalled her own childhood where being told she was "tired" felt like an accusation.
Grebler agreed that this perception can emerge, particularly with older children, where attributing all behavior to tiredness can feel dismissive. However, she reiterated that from infancy, framing tiredness positively—as a natural signal that prompts rest and care—can reframe the experience. "The idea of ‘tired’ being positive and starting from the beginning makes a difference," she stated.
The conversation touched upon how sleep deprivation can manifest as behavioral issues, such as hitting or general dysregulation, in older babies and toddlers. Grebler emphasized that addressing sleep is often the first step in resolving such behavioral challenges. "There’s nothing else you can do with behavior until you sort out the sleep," she asserted. This perspective positions adequate rest not as a reward, but as a fundamental prerequisite for a child’s emotional and behavioral regulation.
Finding a Child’s Natural Rhythm: The Power of Observation Over Imposed Schedules
Grebler shared a personal anecdote about her own son’s sleep at around five months old. Initially, she felt anxious about his sleep patterns, considering external help. However, she ultimately relied on the principles she had been teaching. This led her to observe her son closely and to develop a personalized rhythm, rather than imposing a rigid schedule from a book.
"I’m not going to impose a rhythm on him. And so from that day forward, I just watched really carefully," Grebler explained. She meticulously charted his sleep cues, discovering a consistent window around 9:00 AM when he was predictably tired. This allowed her to proactively prepare him for sleep, leading to a harmonious rhythm that benefited both mother and child.
This approach emphasizes finding the child’s natural rhythm, not forcing them into a predetermined one. Grebler contrasted this with a "routine that goes by the clock," highlighting that a rhythm is more fluid and responsive to the child’s individual needs.
The Broader Implications: Sleep as Part of a Holistic Approach
The discussion consistently circled back to the interconnectedness of sleep with other aspects of a child’s development, including play, caregiving, and the environment. Grebler stressed that sleep cannot be isolated from these broader elements.
"You can’t separate sleep from play from caregiving," she stated. This includes ensuring ample opportunities for free movement, exploration, and connection with caregivers. The environment also plays a crucial role, with Grebler suggesting that outdoor sleep, when feasible, can be highly beneficial, reminiscent of practices at the Pikler Institute.
Lansbury recounted her own experiences, including the challenges of creating an ideal outdoor sleep space due to external noise. She also shared a personal struggle with sleep difficulties in adulthood, finding solace in the advice to "just let it go" and not to worry about controlling sleep. This resonated with Grebler’s perspective on the role of adult anxiety in disrupting sleep for both themselves and their children.
Rethinking "Sleep Training"
The term "sleep training" itself became a point of discussion, with both Lansbury and Grebler expressing a degree of discomfort with the prescriptive and potentially rigid nature it implies. Lansbury noted that she often asks for clarification when the term is used, as its meaning can vary widely.
"Training sounds like it’s some regimented approach," Lansbury observed, aligning with Grebler’s view that RIE principles are not synonymous with traditional sleep training methods that often involve leaving a baby to cry alone.
Grebler clarified that while a brief period of crying can be a release, the RIE philosophy does not advocate for leaving a baby to cry unattended. Instead, the focus remains on being present and supportive, whether that means holding the baby or being in the room. The emphasis is on meeting the child’s needs with presence and compassion, rather than following a set of rules designed to elicit sleep.
"The question that we were talking about earlier, I just don’t think that they have to be by themselves," Grebler stated, differentiating her approach from methods that involve solitary crying.
The Importance of Presence and Connection
A significant takeaway from the discussion is the profound impact of the caregiver’s presence and emotional state on a child’s ability to sleep. Grebler highlighted that anxiety from the adult can be contagious, making it harder for the child to relax.
"When my son was really little, I’d lay on the bed, I’d read, I loved to watch this process. And we’d look at each other and I would sing maybe sometimes and just be there," Grebler shared, illustrating the value of a calm, connected presence. This contrasts with the pressure many parents feel to "make" their child sleep, a goal that can lead to frustration and a less peaceful bedtime experience for everyone.
Conclusion: A Lifelong Approach to Sleep and Well-being
The conversation underscored that a respectful approach to sleep, grounded in observation, attunement, and connection, is not just about achieving a few hours of uninterrupted sleep. It is about building a foundation of trust, security, and self-awareness that benefits the child throughout their life. By reframing sleep as a natural, supported process rather than a challenge to be overcome, parents can foster healthier sleep habits and stronger relationships with their children. Grebler’s practical advice, rooted in decades of experience and a deep understanding of infant development, offers a refreshing and effective alternative to the often anxiety-laden landscape of infant sleep.
Grebler is currently offering a new program called "Hari’s House," designed to showcase the practical application of Pikler and RIE principles in everyday family life, providing parents with a comprehensive view of how these philosophies translate into a nurturing environment for their children.